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Vincent Bach - Valve Variations
Valve Casings
It is generally understood
that prior to S/N 121,7XX
(approx. 1977), valve
casings were made from 2 pieces. The top part was made
of nickel silver. We're still trying to narrow down
this serial number range, please contact us through the
header link.
However, it was recently brought to our
attention that prior to S/N 121,XXX some valve casings may
have been one piece, and out of the same material.
Serial number #597 actually appears to
have both the top and bottom valve casing to be made of
nickel silver.
In addition, Johan serial number #3112 (1935) has a one
piece valve casing (brass).
(Images courtesy of
Johan Åkervall)
Valve Guides
The metal (brass) valve
guides were replaced with nylon plastic guides during the
1980's. This was done for further cost/performance
reasons.
Valve Serial Number -
Casing
The serial number of the
trumpet were stamped on the 2nd valve barrel, until in the
late 49XXX, in which it was replaced by engraving.
| NY |
|
Horizontal Serial Number
above Bore Size on Upper Right side of valve casing
|
| Mt Vernon |
Elkhart 2XXXXX's |
Bore Size above
Horizontal Serial Number on Upper Right Side of
valve casing |
| 2XXXXX's |
3XXXXX's |
Horizontal Serial Number
on Upper Right side, Bore Size on Lower Right side
of valve casing |
| 4XXXXX's |
5XXXXX's |
Vertical Serial Number on
Lower Left side, Bore Size on Lower Right side of
valve casing |
| 6XXXXX's |
Current |
Vertical Serial Number
above Bore Size on Lower Left side of valve casing |
Valve Serial Number -
Actual Valve
Also, the instrument serial numbers
were also stamped on each valve as shown in this photograph.
Some more insight to when this stopped (1970) was discussed on a recent
discussion forum.
If you have updated information on
this, please contact us. We're trying to narrow this
down, as there seems to be inconsistencies in this.
| On valve |
49889 |
| On valve |
502XX |
| Not on valve |
50782 |
| On valve
(Mt. Vernon Cornet) |
139XX |
Valve Cap Serial Number -
Finger Button
In addition the valve caps also had the matching serial
numbers applied to the underside. The time period
these were applied appears to be different than the matching
serial numbers on the valve itself.
| On
Cap |
1816X |
| Not on
Cap |
198XX |
|
Other Variations (can not verify if these
were original Bach) |
|
|
Caps marked I, II, III |
34xxx |
Thanks to users from TrumpetHerald for this narrowed
down serial number list on valve caps.
Valve
Stamping
Throughout the Mt Vernon period, the
second valve was stamped just below the center bell brace as
follows as shown in the photograph below.
V. Bach
Mt.Vernon
N.Y. USA
Vincent Bach - Trumpet Bell Variations
Bell Construction -
Bending
Selmer around 1973 changed the
filler material in the bell crook to a frozen soap type
filler from the previously used, confidential alloy of pitch
type materials that had been developed through the
1950-1960's.
Bell Construction -
Blank
Instead of the traditional funnel
shape or fan pattern after 1965 the Selmer Corp. used a newly
developed
flower "blank" shape that simplified the forming process and
required a
completely different approach to shaping the bell flair.
We are looking for an example of this difference, if anyone
has photos of this manufacturing process difference.
Bell Construction -
Bracing
Early Bach trumpets used
cast braces to attach the bell to the lead pipe, valve
block. Today forged S braces are used instead.
Bell Construction - Logo
Similar to the valve serial
number engraving, bells today are etched, where earlier Bach
trumpets were roll stamped to get the logo applied.
This was switched over around 2000/2002 to a computerized
laser based system.
Bell Construction - Logo
registered Trademark
 |
 |
|
Bell:37
Serial: 75534
R above Vincent
No Corporation |
Bell:37
Serial: 47312
No R above Vincent
Corporation |
After some helpful comments from fellow
Bach loyalists (David, Tim), wanted to add some examples
in this section. It is unclear when both the
registered trademark, and the Corporation was
added/removed from the Bach brass related bells.
Here is a table which summarizes different examples.
|
Serial |
Bell |
® |
Corporation |
| 33937 |
239(C) |
No R |
Corporation |
| 37302 |
311(F) |
No R |
Corporation |
| 42160 |
37 |
No R |
Corporation |
| 46422 |
37(181) |
No R |
Corporation |
| 47312 |
37* |
No R |
Corporation |
| 50782 |
37 |
No R |
Corporation |
| 51622 |
37 |
No R |
Corporation |
| 55746 |
37 |
No R |
Corporation |
| 61081 |
236(D) |
No R |
Corporation |
| 61824 |
37 |
No R |
Corporation |
| 61855 |
239 |
No R |
Corporation |
| 63003 |
37 |
No R |
Corporation |
| 66953 |
37 |
No R |
Corporation |
| 67184 |
72* |
No R |
Corporation |
| 68278 |
37 |
R |
No Corporation |
| 68400 |
37 |
R |
No Corporation |
| 69168 |
229L |
No R |
Corporation |
| 70424 |
37 |
R |
No Corporation |
| 75094 |
37(LT) |
R |
No Corporation |
| 75534 |
37 |
R |
No Corporation |
| 76005 |
37 |
R |
No Corporation |
| 81719 |
72* |
No R |
Corporation |
| 83544 |
43 |
No R |
Corporation |
| 854XX |
43* |
No R |
Corporation |
| 85744 |
304 |
No R |
Corporation |
| 86766 |
25 |
No R |
Corporation |
| 87675 |
229 |
No R |
Corporation |
| 101647 |
37 |
R |
No Corporation |
| 108090 |
37 |
R |
No Corporation |
| 108735 |
43* |
No R |
Corporation |
| 114917 |
236(D) |
No R |
Corporation |
| 115945 |
72 |
No R |
Corporation |
| 121192 |
37 |
R |
No Corporation |
| 123404 |
37 |
R |
No Corporation |
| 123887 |
37 |
R |
No Corporation |
| 142397 |
229(C) |
No R |
Corporation |
| 145843 |
229(C) |
No R |
Corporation |
| 146373 |
|
R |
No Corporation |
| 150018 |
239(C) |
No R |
Corporation |
| 164284 |
239(C) |
No R |
Corporation |
| 166706 |
72* |
No R |
Corporation |
| 171892 |
37 |
R |
No Corporation |
| 173912 |
43 |
No R |
Corporation |
| 176291 |
43 |
No R |
Corporation |
| 186493 |
37 |
R |
No Corporation |
| 197405 |
43 |
R |
No Corporation |
| 388483 |
43 |
R |
No Corporation |
| 409696 |
72* |
R |
No Corporation |
| 426673 |
(184) |
R |
No Corporation |
| 474985 |
65G |
R |
No Corporation |
| 478532 |
43 |
R |
No Corporation |
It is important to
note the major events during this same time. For
example, Vincent Bach Corp. was sold to Selmer in 1961,
and was part of the Selmer Musical Instrument company.
(That would have been around serial number 21,000.
Another way to look
at this is by the bell type. Perhaps the
differences were related to the fixturing for stamping
the logo on different bell mandrels. Same list as
above, but sorted by bell type.
37 Type Bell
|
Serial |
Bell |
® |
Corporation |
| 47312 |
37* |
No R |
Corporation |
| 55746 |
37 |
No R |
Corporation |
| 61824 |
37 |
No R |
Corporation |
| 63003 |
37 |
No R |
Corporation |
| 66953 |
37 |
No R |
Corporation |
|
| 68278 |
37 |
R |
No Corporation |
| 68400 |
37 |
R |
No Corporation |
| 70424 |
37 |
R |
No Corporation |
| 75094 |
37(LT) |
R |
No Corporation |
| 75534 |
37 |
R |
No Corporation |
| 76005 |
37 |
R |
No Corporation |
| 121192 |
37 |
R |
No Corporation |
| 123404 |
37 |
R |
No Corporation |
43 Type Bell
|
Serial |
Bell |
® |
Corporation |
| 83544 |
43 |
No R |
Corporation |
| 854XX |
43* |
No R |
Corporation |
| 108735 |
43* |
No R |
Corporation |
| 176291 |
43 |
No R |
Corporation |
|
| 197405 |
43 |
R |
No Corporation |
| 388483 |
43 |
R |
No Corporation |
| 478532 |
43 |
R |
No Corporation |
Bell Construction -
Indiana, USA
Similar to the registered trademark/corporation
above, there are variations to the State marking from IND.
to IN, and also from U.S.A. to USA.
|
Serial |
State |
USA |
Other |
| |
|
|
|
|
412786 |
IND. |
U.S.A. |
Vertical Serial Numbers
(Bottom Right)
Bore Sizes
(Bottom Left) |
|
438218
(37) |
IN |
USA |
Bell Font Changed
Vertical Serial Numbers
(Bottom Right)
Bore Sizes
(Bottom Left) |
| |
|
|
|
Please send us your notes on what
serial number this changed also on your Bach brass
instrument. Help us narrow down the serial number
range.
Bell Construction -
Model 182
In 2007, Conn Selmer started making
the mdoel 182 in their Eastlake, Ohio facility, and
changed the bell engraving to the following:
"Handcrafted
in the U.S.A"
|
Serial |
State |
USA |
Other |
| |
|
|
|
|
17735X |
None |
U.S.A. |
Handcrafted
in the U.S.A. |
Bell Construction - Rim
The Elkhart bells (>1965)
have full round bell wire, versus early Bach trumpets which
had a more traditional French
half round bead.
Bell Construction -
Seam
Early Elkhart, Mt. Vernon
bells have the seam running towards the valve section.
Bell Seam
Example
Serial Number 48765
There have
been different variations through the serial numbers. Some
other examples include
(looking into the bell). Thanks to Chris Kase for
these additional examples.
|
Serial Number |
Seam Position |
|
117XX (NY 37ML) |
6 o'clock |
|
188XX (MtV M Bore) |
7 o'clock |
Bell Construction -
Thickness
On older Bach trumpets the
bell thickness is tapered as the bell flares out.
Today, through modern manufacturing techniques, the bell
thickness is much more uniform, allowing for similar sound
vs. daily manufacturing variations. This is one reason
why older Bach trumpets often have a different sound to
them.
Vincent Bach - Master
Tuning Slide Variations
Tuning Slide -
Wrap
The master tuning slide
crook in the early 50's was made wider on later
instruments made
in the Mt. Vernon shop after approximately 1955. This
difference is about 0.25 inch.
NY Bach - Tuning Slide entry 3rd valve
Serial
Number
#4117, courtesy of Jeff Dacks
Note how the tuning slide entry into the 3rd valve goes down
at an angle. Newer Bach tuning slides go "straight"
into the 3rd valve.
Also it is very interesting to see the
change in the wrap during time with early Vincent Bach
trumpets. Also, note the relative position of the spit
valve and drain with respect to the main tuning slide.
Here are some great examples:
 |
500,XXX
(1999) |
30,XXX
(1964) |
15,XXX
(1956) |
5,8XX (Mercury)
(1941) |
Other Examples of Bach Wraps on early Bach
trumpets.
Bach MtV (#30XXX/1964) vs. Bach MtV (#15XXX/1956)
Bach Mercury (#58XX/) vs. Bach MtV (#15XXX/1956)
If you are looking for the original style
concept tuning slide crook, you should look into Dave's
classic tuning slide
here.
Tuning Slide - 1st Valve Slide
/ Saddle
"The first slide was changed to the reversed construction in
the mid 1970's. It was done because the old style had to
have an extension arm made to solder on the 1st slide tuning
crook. By reversing the slide tubes, the slide action was
greatly improved and (2) by eliminating the soldering of the
hook to the slide crook, it helped the response of notes
associated with that valve."
from Tedd Waggoner (Vincent Bach Brass
Product Manager)
The first valve saddle
became standard in the 1970's. Before that time, this
was an option.
Tuning Slide - 3rd Valve
Stop Rod
Before 1940, the stop rod bracing
was hexagonal in shape. Here are good examples of this
style from a pre 1940's Bach. Mt. Vernon Bach's had
the stop rod guide facing the 3rd valve. Sometime in the
mid-late 1960's (1967 example shows this facing the bell), the
stop rod was reversed to face the bell. We are looking
for additional examples to narrow down this serial number
range.
Vincent Bach - Lead Pipe
Variations
Lead pipe - Finger Hook
Design
New York Style
Serial Number #4117 (1937)
Mt. Vernon
Transition Style
Good example of the "transition" finger hook between the
New York and later Mt. Vernon styles
Mt. Vernon
Style - 1959
Elkhart
Style - 1973
Lead pipe - Labels/Style
Some recent lead pipes (>1970)
have the label applied to the mouthpiece shank, and many
early leadpipes were labeled.
Lead pipe - Mouthpiece
Receiver
"The mouthpiece
receiver was shorted by Vincent Bach himself back in the
late 1950's before he sold his company to the Selmer
Company. I don't know his reason for doing this. We simply
kept his designs."
-Tedd Waggoner
Vincent Bach Brass Product Manager
Vincent Bach - Bracing
Braces
"Early differences are the nickel
hex braces, this changed in around 1940
to what we are familiar with today."
Thanks to Marco Rippert who
provided the concept and initial measurements of key bracing
locations. Note the potential variation required to
get the fullest sound from your Bach trumpet.
|
Serial |
(Year) |
Model |
A |
B |
C |
D |
E |
F |
| |
|
|
measurement (mm) |
| 250XXX |
1985 |
180LT72 |
9 |
80 |
136 |
127 |
114 |
210 |
| 510XXX |
2000 |
180LT72 |
12 |
75 |
137 |
125 |
101 |
192 |
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Add your measurements by using the contact form at the
top of the page.
Vincent Bach - Shop Cards / Invoices
Shop Cards
Bach used simple note cards
for his shop card records of each horn. During the
years, the same basic information was recorded, however the
format slightly changed through the years. Original
color was pink.
(Serial # 1314; May 1929)
(Serial # 4117; November 1937)
courtesy of Jeff Dacks
(Serial # 15096; June 1956)
(Serial # 30017; October 1964)
Invoices
Bach invoice for 6 Bach Mercury
trumpets from August 1955 to Kitt Music Company.
(Still in business today,
click here)
Registration Card
Registration Card example (1964/1965)
Serial #: 25662
Vincent Bach Warranty Certificate (1955)
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